Curse

Winterclaw · Oct 09, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Victorious Sweep plus AoM or AoD FTW.

Enchanted Haste and Harrier's Grasp would probably be pretty good in PvP. If you have 2 enchantments on you, Pious Restoration is a good way to remove enchantments (if you don't have AoD).

draxynnic · Oct 09, 2007, 02:12 AM // 02:12

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Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Yes.. but there aren't any circumstances which it is useful. But i'm done with argueing this same thing, listen to good dervishes and accept Balthazar sucks, or stay on the same level as Sir Pandra Pierva.

Personal attacks, eh? I guess you didn't read my line about 99% of the time it's more useful to use something else?

I'm agreeing that it's far from the most useful elite on the Dervish bar (I tend to use Lyssa, Dwayna or EDA myself). I just want to point out that there's a difference between a skill that's only occasionally useful and one that's outright bad.

Stormlord Alex · Oct 09, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I just want to point out that there's a difference between a skill that's only occasionally useful and one that's outright bad.

And Balth is of the latter. Now you see that...
Welcome to the fold, young Dervish.

~ Dan ~ · Oct 09, 2007, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Personal attacks, eh? I guess you didn't read my line about 99% of the time it's more useful to use something else?

I'm agreeing that it's far from the most useful elite on the Dervish bar (I tend to use Lyssa, Dwayna or EDA myself). I just want to point out that there's a difference between a skill that's only occasionally useful and one that's outright bad.

I read your line. It's not even useful 1% of the time. Name ONE situation you would take it over any other elite. There is a difference between occasionally useful and outright bad - AoB is just outright bad.

Str0b0 · Oct 09, 2007, 08:39 AM // 08:39

I can personally only think of two uses for AoB that are used with some regularity. A minion army destroyer in AB with banishing sweep and the inherent holy damage and Temple of the Damned because of all the undead. Those are only two instance which, I'm sad to say, does not even come close to making 1%. AoB is bad. There is no defense for it. It is used in a couple of very very niche builds with no practical application outside of the setting those niche builds were designed for.

When I see another dervish using AoB I chuckle as I wade into the mod with my lyssa build and out damage them and yet somehow still manage to survive without that pointless armor bonus. I laugh as I hear the distinctive sound of attack skills canceling on them because I already took out their intended target group with a single attack chain. I get a kick out of watching them try to farm undead in Kryta and get blinded into oblivion while I, in my swanky little melandru mow right through the undead menace and get my loots. what I'm trying to say is any situation where you would use Balthazar, outside of the AB build since it does work fantastically well, another form could do the job better and that my friend makes for a BAD skill and an ABYSMALLY BAD elite.

draxynnic · Oct 09, 2007, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Young?

I used it for Gate of Madness, actually. Armour helped for tanking Shiro when he switched from Riposting Shadows to Impossible Odds, holy damage helped for taking the Lich down fast (he doesn't spend much time using skills, from memory, he just has attacks from hell) as well as helping with the Portal Wraiths, and the speed boost helped with luring mobs and moving between shrines.

To go through the others:
Ebon Dust: Other members of the party were concentrating on hexes rather than conditions, and I didn't want to get the Blind back interfering with breaking Scars with Wild Blow.

Vow of Strength: Interferes with Wild Blow

Arcane Zeal: Not spamming spells

Avatar of Dwayna: Not spamming skills enough

Avatar of Grenth: Neither Shiro nor Khilbron use enchantments

Avatar of Lyssa: Close competition for the extra damage against skills, but I didn't figure the Lich would be using skills enough for it.

Avatar of Melandru: Didn't want to burn all the energy.

Pious Renewal: Didn't seem useful

Vow of Silence: Neither Shiro not Khilbron use targetted spells.

Reaper's Sweep: Didn't want Deep Wound coming back when he Impossible Oddsed

Wounding Strike: See above.

Anything from Wind Prayers: Wasn't carrying that line.

Lyssa was close competition (and was what I brought for Imperial Sanctum), but in short in this particular case the unfocused buffs Balthazar gave happened to be what I was looking for.

Dr Strangelove · Oct 09, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Young?

I used it for Gate of Madness, actually. Armour helped for tanking Shiro when he switched from Riposting Shadows to Impossible Odds, holy damage helped for taking the Lich down fast (he doesn't spend much time using skills, from memory, he just has attacks from hell) as well as helping with the Portal Wraiths, and the speed boost helped with luring mobs and moving between shrines.

To go through the others:
Ebon Dust: Other members of the party were concentrating on hexes rather than conditions, and I didn't want to get the Blind back interfering with breaking Scars with Wild Blow.

Vow of Strength: Interferes with Wild Blow

Arcane Zeal: Not spamming spells

Avatar of Dwayna: Not spamming skills enough

Avatar of Grenth: Neither Shiro nor Khilbron use enchantments

Avatar of Lyssa: Close competition for the extra damage against skills, but I didn't figure the Lich would be using skills enough for it.

Avatar of Melandru: Didn't want to burn all the energy.

Pious Renewal: Didn't seem useful

Vow of Silence: Neither Shiro not Khilbron use targetted spells.

Reaper's Sweep: Didn't want Deep Wound coming back when he Impossible Oddsed

Wounding Strike: See above.

Anything from Wind Prayers: Wasn't carrying that line.

Lyssa was close competition (and was what I brought for Imperial Sanctum), but in short in this particular case the unfocused buffs Balthazar gave happened to be what I was looking for.

Ebon Dust Aura would have been better.

What do I win?

For demolishing minion armies, run heart of holy flame and an elite that doesn't suck. In fact, melandru is really, really good in the undead areas thanks to condition spam.

Str0b0 · Oct 09, 2007, 04:05 PM // 16:05

FAIL! The lich shouldn't even enter the equation there. He's easy to take down withou the Holy damage from Balthazar. The extra armor vs Impossible Odds is foolish. By the time he hits the point where he will use it you should be able to spike him down in two or three attack chains. In the end you raped your party Damage output and exposed them to a potential wipe because you preferred to tank instead of do real damage. Shiro is not about drawing the fight out and being the last one standing. Shiro is about a fast kill. If you're the last one standing in a party by virtue of your tanking then you'll join your party shortly.

Personally I use Lyssa or EDA for Shiro and here is why. Lyssa spikes and with the right attack skills by the time he hits impossible odds you can spike him down before he gets the chance to do it again and wipe your party. EDA is generally the superior choice because the odds of him landing an impossible odds blow and putting the condition on you is slim to none. He has to hit you to transfer the condition. If you should take a blind then your monk should be able to hook you up since a competent team will have their casters spread out while you draw his attention and WB Battle scars.

~ Dan ~ · Oct 09, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I used it for Gate of Madness, actually. Armour helped for tanking Shiro when he switched from Riposting Shadows to Impossible Odds

I just took any random build as long as it had wild blow for that. You don't need to actually tank shiro, you just hold the aggro and your monks keep you there. Never once failed the mission after doing it almost 10 times with H+H.. so yea.

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holy damage helped for taking the Lich down fast

As Str0b0 said, the Lich is a joke.

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as well as helping with the Portal Wraiths

Why were these a problem? And i don't suppose AoB saved you from eruption??

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and the speed boost helped with luring mobs

The faster you run, the more chance you have of breaking aggro.

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and moving between shrines.

Did your whole team have a speed boost? Or did you run off ahead then stop just before the shrine for them to catch up before you got owned so hard?

MBP · Oct 09, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

I'd rather go Lyssa with /W for wild blow and finish the mission ten times easier.

AoB is crap compared to any other avatar even Grenth is better, deal with it.

draxynnic · Oct 10, 2007, 03:25 AM // 03:25

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You don't need to actually tank shiro, you just hold the aggro and your monks keep you there.

Every little bit helps.

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The lich is a joke

A potentially hard-hitting joke. He normally does go down fast, but reducing the risk that he'll take someone down with him is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Why were these a problem? And i don't suppose AoB saved you from eruption??

No. Interrupts, condition removal, and just plain getting-in-their-face-early was more important there, with Sand Shards to cover if I did get hit by it.

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The faster you run, the more chance you have of breaking aggro.

On the other hand, it means you're in the danger zone where you might get hit by an overlapping patrol for less time.

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Did your whole team have a speed boost? Or did you run off ahead then stop just before the shrine for them to catch up before you got owned so hard?

Neither. Groups of 3-4 Margonites aren't that tough.

Being a little less flippant, the speedboost was enough to make sure I was at the front of the party when we hit the next shrine and could start gathering aggro as they arrived.

To be honest, though, and this applies to both of the above posts

Obviously, you lot are kneejerking, so we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree here. It's certainly inferior to the other avatars, with the possible exception of the nerfed Grenth. However, I still maintain my position that there's a difference between being worse than the alternatives and being outright bad.

Think of it this way: If for some reason Avatar of Balthazar was the only Dervish elite you had access to (for a restricted skillset style tournament, for example), are you really that sure you'd take Skull Crack over it? Or a nonelite? What if, say, Melandru was available, but the skills that synergise with it weren't?

That, in my mind, is the difference. There are some skills that are just plain bad, others just get pushed out by the competition in most situations. Balthazar is, IMO, in the second category.

Str0b0 · Oct 10, 2007, 04:20 AM // 04:20

No there is no kneejerking about it. The skill is bad. The speed boost is pointless. I don't think in the entire time of my playing guildwars, and I've had it since it went live, have I ever found the need for a speed boost in normal PvE. The only time I've ever used a speed boost is running and running ain't PvE. As for the armor I'd rather run EDA and and Armor of Sanctity. At least that way I'd be an asset to the team by way of melee shutdown and I'd still have the same, if not better damage reduction than AoB could give me through it's +40 armor boost.

You say there is a difference between a skill being bad and it just being worse than the alternatives. I fail to see the difference. If all your other alternative skills are better than AoB then that makes AoB bad. In your example of a restricted skillset tournament, which is flawed anyway since AoB has NO practical PvP applications, I would honestly rather go in without an elite than take AoB because I'm sure I could find a regular skill that would serve me better than AoB. I'd take Melandru even without Wearying strike just because it at least provides a valuable bonus in its condition immunity. I've run AoB, I've capped all the avatars and out of all of them AoB has the least utility.

You can't just say." It's not bad it's just that everything else is better." That makes it bad. Just flat out bad. AoB is right up there with Otyugh's Cry as one of the worst skills in the game, made even worse by the fact that it's supposed to be an elite. I don't get why you even bother defending it? Even if you are 100% right, you're not but for the sake of argument let's say that you are, it's a bad skill because the majority of experienced Dervish players view it as a bad skill. It's a bad skill because a lot of people thinking of taking a dervish in a group will kick you if you have AoB in your bar and refuse to substitute it. I know I do it on a regular basis with my groups and I know I'm not alone. It doesn't add extra damage by itself. It doesn't have any skills that synergize with it to increase your damage output, like melandru and wearying. It gives you a pretty crappy buff in the form of + armor and + speed. Armor buffs do not mitigate degen and it won't mitigate elemental damage either so basically you get more armor vs. physical which any competent dervish should be able to mitigate through earth prayers without wasting an elite on it. I won't go into the speed buffs again.

You can agree to disagree all you want but the FACT of the matter is this; Avatar of Balthazar = FAIL!

draxynnic · Oct 10, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

I see. It's labelled 'bad' because everyone kneejerks it to be a bad skill. Nooooow I understand. *eyeroll*

Just like people used to discriminate against anything that isn't in the 'holy trinity', although with a little more justification.

Speedboosts can be useful in PvE when the squishy is kiting (yes, the AI DOES kite occasionally) or when you really do want to get from point A to point B quickly.

Also, unless there's something missing from the skill description, the armour boost DOES help against elemental damage. That the argument can be made that you usually don't need it says more about Mystic Regeneration than it does about Balthazar.

I'd certainly expect to justify it on use - but I don't think it's indefensible.

Going on a tangent... Have you noticed that Otyugh's Cry has been majorly reworked since release? It at least looks like it does something now...

PS Some times when speed boosts might be useful (not usually essential, but helpful):
Great Northern Wall, Hard Mode. Big chase scene with the mobs having the inherent bonus from Hard Mode.
Divinity Coast: One of the Chosen sometimes requires you to move quickly to rescue them from a gang of Tengu - although I haven't known them to be ganked before normal-speed characters can get to them in a while, so this may have been fixed.
Aurora Glade: Running crystals. Especially if going for bonus.
Moddok Crevice: Chasing down the runners
Jennur's Horde: Running Lights
Abaddon's Gate: Pulling back when he breaks loose
Heart of the Shiverpeaks: Running kegs

Str0b0 · Oct 10, 2007, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Ok you got me on the elemental damage. I misread something. As far as it being indefensible it is! How can you possibly defend it except in the very rare cases that you mentioned, like the completely unlikely capped skillset tourney? You admit that the other avatars, with the exception of Grenth, outshine AoB.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

It's certainly inferior to the other avatars, with the possible exception of the nerfed Grenth.

So by your own admission it is an inferior skill choice in light of your alternatives in PvE. Now if it comes down to picking an inferior skill or a superior skill then yeah it becomes indefensible in any instance unless you can honestly tell me with a straight face that you would willfully use an inferior skill just to prove a point? That is your word there too inferior.

I'd like to talk about that word there too if I may. Inferior, in this instance it is used to mean of comparatively low grade or quality or performing in a way that is substandard or mediocre. Hmm sounds an awful lot like bad to me. Let's check shall we?

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Originally Posted by Websters Unabridged Dictionary

bad-of poor or inferior quality; defective; deficient;inadequate or below standard; not satisfactory for use

Yup definitely bad. The definition of bad even uses the word inferior so open and shut case there.

Another telling phrase you chose to use.

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

That the argument can be made that you usually don't need it says more about Mystic Regeneration than it does about Balthazar.

I have to agree with you. It says that Mystic Regeneration by itself outshines AoB, a non elite skill is better than the elite buffs. The same cannot be said for the other Avatar buffs. As for your speed boost instances I've never had the need to use them, not even HM Great Northern Wall because my Dervish build can kill the entire Charr force in HM with time to spare to run to the end. I owe that mostly to the fact that I don't use AoB. All the other instances are either not worth a mention, i.e. any time you have to get from point A to point B in a mission for any reason your normal running speed suffices even for bonuses, or can be solved by simply bringing along a non elite skill, i.e. like chasing down a target. Dervishes have crippling skills for a reason.

Personally I think that that should be the acid test for whether an elite is a bad elite or not. If you can achieve the same results with a non elite skill of the same profession then it is a bad skill. By that rationale AoB fails on every account.

~ Dan ~ · Oct 10, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I see. It's labelled 'bad' because everyone kneejerks it to be a bad skill. Nooooow I understand. *eyeroll*

No, it's because experienced dervishes know what they're talking about, but you don't.

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Speedboosts can be useful in PvE when the squishy is kiting (yes, the AI DOES kite occasionally) or when you really do want to get from point A to point B quickly.

Snare > speedboost for catching kiters. [skill]Crippling Sweep[/skill] is ftw.

When you justify a speedboost, Pious Haste for me is the strongest speed buff a derv has. You could use the enchant stripping of it to time it with say, Vital Boon for insta heal. If you know what your doing, you can use it inbetween mobs knowing full well it'll end before your reach the next. This is without even needing a cancel stance.

Tbh i think an AoB thread should just be made so everything like this can go in there. I've seen 5 threads or so quite recently that just end up in an argument about this crappy skill.

Tyla · Oct 10, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I see. It's labelled 'bad' because everyone kneejerks it to be a bad skill. Nooooow I understand. *eyeroll*

Doesn't take a pro overlook advantages of other skills.

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Just like people used to discriminate against anything that isn't in the 'holy trinity', although with a little more justification.

'Holy Trinity' was for mega puggers who don't know anything else anyway,and besides the newer things allow flexibility.

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Speedboosts can be useful in PvE when the squishy is kiting (yes, the AI DOES kite occasionally) or when you really do want to get from point A to point B quickly.

how about a non-elite speed boost? [skill]pious haste[/skill]

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Also, unless there's something missing from the skill description, the armour boost DOES help against elemental damage. That the argument can be made that you usually don't need it says more about Mystic Regeneration than it does about Balthazar.

Enchantments for protection>petty armour buff:including the fact that most AoB dervs use half of their bar for enchantments/defense and using like...eh?1 skill slot for an attack and res or just 2 attack skills that have no use?

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Going on a tangent... Have you noticed that Otyugh's Cry has been majorly reworked since release? It at least looks like it does something now...

Thats because it had like the worst effect in the game.even mending had a stronger effect imo...

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PS Some times when speed boosts might be useful (not usually essential, but helpful):
Great Northern Wall, Hard Mode. Big chase scene with the mobs having the inherent bonus from Hard Mode.
Divinity Coast: One of the Chosen sometimes requires you to move quickly to rescue them from a gang of Tengu - although I haven't known them to be ganked before normal-speed characters can get to them in a while, so this may have been fixed.
Aurora Glade: Running crystals. Especially if going for bonus.
Moddok Crevice: Chasing down the runners
Jennur's Horde: Running Lights
Abaddon's Gate: Pulling back when he breaks loose
Heart of the Shiverpeaks: Running kegs

*cough* again,[skill]pious haste[/skill]

draxynnic · Oct 11, 2007, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla salanari

how about a non-elite speed boost? [skill]pious haste[/skill]

Involves enchantment-stripping, and not at a time you can control (without a second stance as a breaker, anyway; although you might be able to time it so you put up an enchantment you can afford to lose when it's about to end). It also doesn't stack with Conviction - neither does Balthazar, but it overlaps instead.

(Mind you, I tend to prefer to use more enchantments over Conviction to fuel Windwalker's, Mystic Sweep and Mystic Regen, but that's beside the point.)

jesh · Oct 11, 2007, 02:30 AM // 02:30

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Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

No it's not. What're you gona keep stopping to remove every single snare? VoS runner > all avatar runners.

Dwayna is pretty damn good.. and in the Frozen Forest I'd like to see a VoS runner survive.

MBP · Oct 11, 2007, 02:59 AM // 02:59

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Originally Posted by draxynnic

Involves enchantment-stripping, and not at a time you can control (without a second stance as a breaker, anyway; although you might be able to time it so you put up an enchantment you can afford to lose when it's about to end). It also doesn't stack with Conviction - neither does Balthazar, but it overlaps instead.

(Mind you, I tend to prefer to use more enchantments over Conviction to fuel Windwalker's, Mystic Sweep and Mystic Regen, but that's beside the point.)

You can very easily control the enchantment striping. Once you recast PH it removes a enchantment...there's also something called timing...involves counting I've heard.

hey! guess what happens when you don't have any enchants on when pious haste ends?

nothing wow!

use it smart and it's no problem..besides you also want your enchantments to end sometimes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Dwayna is pretty damn good.. and in the Frozen Forest I'd like to see a VoS runner survive.

Dwana runner is plenty capable in certain situations...true it's not as versatile as VOS runner but it's still a nice way to run.

Darkside · Oct 11, 2007, 05:53 AM // 05:53

I like how this turned into a Bash party against AoB.